I've been having a wee interchange with my blog buddy Braveheart, who keeps me in mind of the narrow perspective that people from the West of Scotland seem to suffer. He's a moderate, sensible fellow by his own admission.
The crux of our recent debate has been that education stramash. Renfrew led SNP were considering diluting the teaching staff, and had the gone so far as trying to find a way to spin it as some sort of mutually beneficial, improvement to kids education. Personally, I reckon if someone gets trained to deal with a class room of kids and deliver a syllabus, then they're a teacher and they need to be treated as teachers, so it was all a bit of smoke and mirrors bullshit in order to make cost savings - why we don't just apply some sort of levy to those massive multi-national supermarkets instead of cutting our own throats and stifling our children's education I'll never know!
Anyway, Braveheart, being the fearless Labour spinner that he is reckons that's a much worse scenario than the situation in North Ayrshire where the Labour led council considered a proposal to cut the school week from 5 days to 4.
Now, neither proposal has actually come to fruition, but from my persepctive it's at least encouraging to note that the councils were willing to think outside of the box and give some air to all the proposals - I've been in enough brain storming sessions to see the merit in allowing all ideas to be be put on the board and then discussed in the group scenario. At least you get a consensus on what's acceptable and what's not. Sometimes you even get a better understanding of the original problem... but that's all by the bye. I'm not much impressed by the hysterical reactions from our supposed political leaders to these sorts of suggestions though.
The highlight of this wee debate though has been Braveheart suggesting that I go jump off a cliff - he seems to be under the impression that this is an idea I might dismiss out of hand immediately... poor boy!
Check this out:
PS The Sound track is pretty good too!
PPS Why don't we have a levy on those multi-million pound, multi-national companies that are killing our town centres again?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Naughty Jim. You know, because I gave you the info, that North Ayrshire never considered a 4 day school week.
ReplyDeleteAnd I suggested you jump off a cliff in response to your idea that any thought must not be disnmissed "... the moment it is revealed.." rather(according to you) you should allow "...it be given due consideration."
Hence "jump off a cliff". By your own logic it should be done without consideration.
Not that I think you actually believe that, you just said it rather than lose the point.
Tut tut Braveheart - and I pointed you to the BBC link where North Ayrshire council leader David O'Neill admitted that such a proposal had been considered...
ReplyDelete"Jump off a cliff should be done without consideration" ? If that's what you're reading from my exchanges, then the one eye that you use for reading these things isn't doing a very good job.
Try again with the video clip showing how jumping of a cliff done the right way could be an exhillerating experience... although I do realise that you Labourites have a dreadful inbuilt fear of broadening your horizons...
Tut tut Jim.
ReplyDeleteAs I pointed out, it was never considered.
Offices put it up as "blue skies" thinking.... what's the worst case scenario...
and it was immediately, with no consideration, shot down.
AS I said, go jump off a cliff.. a proposal that you would immediately, and without consideration, shoot down.
Oh dear Braveheart!
ReplyDeleteStill desperate to show us how little you know of the wider world and how you prefer to be seen as insular and inward looking than to have mooted an original thought.
I'm going to give the North Ayrshire Labour council the benefit of having had the wherewithal to have run a properly conceived brainstorming session. It's a shame that you can't see beyond the petty newspaper headlines.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-12380012
What councillor O'Neill said:
"No elected member at the seminar where we talked about it thought it was a good idea.
"Parents by and large work round about the school week ... and it really wouldn't be practical to move away from that."
Far from not considering it, that reads to me like the councillors looked at it and considering the implications have given a reasoned response as to why they wouldn't want to go down that road. It really does come out as a positive piece of work by the council and for the life of me I can't see why you would prefer to have some knee-jerk, unthinking, stooges running the show... oh...
As for jumping off a cliff - I already have and would willingly do so again. I've also jumped of piers, cranes, bridges and mountains but not out of an aeroplane... yet!
@Jim "..that reads to me like the councillors looked at it and considering the implications have given a reasoned response as to why they wouldn't want to go down that road. It really does come out as a positive piece of work by the council .."
ReplyDeleteNice to see you've come round to my way of thinking Jim.
Given that you're starting position was ...
"..Was actually the bit where Salmond was accusing Labour of rank hypocrisy over education cuts and the Labour plans to introduce a 4 day week for school children in North Ayrshire. Those plans have been shelved thankfully."
No plans, just a moments thought and then dismissed. That's what I have been saying all along. It's nice you've been persuaded ....
And, BTW, the councillor who asked for the "blue skies thinking" was the leader of the SNP group....
ReplyDeleteOh dear Braveheart - still spinning away in this pointless endeavour of yours.
ReplyDeleteYour original position if you care to read back your own comments was:
"The plans for a 4 day week haven't been shelved. They never existed."
That is patently wrong and you have been repeatedly found wanting on that point.
I have in several places now expressed my admiration for the council's willingness to consider all options and to properly rationalise why some have been dismissed.
I have described the Renfrew council's idea of having pretendy teachers doing all but teaching children for less than teachers pay as 'smoke and mirrors bullshit'.
I have agreed with the presiding officer that it would have been better for Salmond to actually address Grey's question than simply point to the hypocrisy of the Labour position, although I appreciate why he (Salmond) found it so disingenious in the first place.
However to suggest that I have somehow come around to your way of thinking is sadly wrong.
Your way of thinking is that Renfrew shelving it's plans is somehow a victory for Grey whilst my way of thinking is that it's a damned shame that council's in an oil, mineral and natural resource rich country such as ours should have to contemplate making these sorts of cuts in the first place.
Your way of thinking is that of the petty minded party aparatchek, seeking only glory for your party and humiliation for the others, my way of thinking is that neither side covered themselves in glory with their 'hysterical reactions'.
Your way of thinking leads to a situation where the Labour party in Scotland simply vote against anything the SNP propose, so whilst Labour in England can support ideas such as supermarket levies, minimum pricing on alcohol, the release of Al-Megrahi - Labour in Scotland simply chunder mindlessly away and have no qualms about voting against a budget which has addressed every single one of the amendments they have proposed.
Oh dear Jim
ReplyDelete""The plans for a 4 day week haven't been shelved. They never existed....That is patently wrong and you have been repeatedly found wanting on that point."
Sorry Jim. A plan is something that exists in itself. It has content and intent. It is usually written down. It has detail and justification and it is proposed as something to achieve and the way to achieve it.
A plan is not a line on a report which says "we could look at having a 4 day week", and which is immediately rejected as too idiotic to consider seriously.
your starting position was "....the bit where Salmond was accusing Labour of rank hypocrisy over education cuts and the Labour plans to introduce a 4 day week for school children in North Ayrshire. Those plans have been shelved thankfully..."
But you changed that to "..that reads to me like the councillors looked at it and considering the implications have given a reasoned response as to why they wouldn't want to go down that road. It really does come out as a positive piece of work by the council .."
They looked at it and saw it was nonsense and rejected it out of hand. No plan, therefore no plan to be shelved.
I must say I admire your ability to face several ways at once while fooling youself that you are being logical and consistent, although it's not an attitude I would take myself, preferring logic and reason and facts.
But then, I'm not a nationalist.....
And, BTW, the councillor who asked for the "blue skies thinking" was the leader of the SNP group....
ReplyDeleteJim, do you care to respond to the new information I gave you here...? Take the discussion forward... that sort of thing....
Of course you will have to decide whether you approach it from your opening position (..... rank hypocrisy over education cuts and the Labour plans to introduce a 4 day week for school children in North Ayrshire. Those plans have been shelved thankfully...) or your closing position (...It really does come out as a positive piece of work by the council ...).
The good bit is that you have a choice: you can portray the leader of the SNP group as a dope for even considering a 4 day week, or you can praise him for a positive piece of work.
Of course, whichever stance you take will contradict your other position.... but that's the consequence of being wrong to start with and then, when presented with the facts, coming round to my way of thinking.
Not that I'm looking for thanks you understand...
Braveheart - logic and reason rather than facts ;-)
ReplyDeleteHere's a fact for you
You've denied something that the council leader acknowledged - fact!
Now, unless you're on that council - how would you know what they discussed? I can only go on the press reports and what the council leader said to the press.
Gray attacks SNP over proposed plans in Renfrewshire - Salmond counters (not constructively IMO) with reported Labour proposals for North Ayrshire. Cue Hysteria!
You see that as a win for Grey, I see it as a loss for us all.
But if it's logic and facts you want to debate, let's hear how you justify the Janus faced attitude of Labour on issues such as supermarket Levies (which might have saved our poor councils needing to consider such radical plans), minimum pricing on alcohol, the release of Al-Megrahi...
Scottish Labour has become a byword for hypocrisy but if stooges like you are willing to waste your energy spinning the lies to keep these charlatons in power then you keep at it - I'll just dream of a better Scotland where we benefit from the judicious nurturing of our natural resources rather than one which pays for Londom centric Imperial aspirations.
By gum Jim, you're persistent even when you're wrong. I'll give you that. I wonder how long you would go on if you were right...
ReplyDeleteAccording to you (not me), what the council leader said was ""No elected member at the seminar where we talked about it thought it was a good idea"
That agrees exactly with my analysis.... it wasn't a formal council meeting or a formal committee meeting reviewing and endorsing (or not) a formal plan. It was a pre-budget seminar with all councillors involved, throwing ideas around, including the radical, worst-case-scenario ideas such as a 4-day week asked for by the leader of the SNP group on the council.
So I haven't denied anything the council leader said: we are in complete agreement he and I. Nobody thinks or thought it was a good idea. It never got off the paper. It was not proposed or endorsed or discussed in any dtailed way. It was dismissed without wasting time or energy on it.
As I pointed out before, the Renfrewshire proposal was a formal plan discussed and agreed at a formal committee and sent out for consultation.
There is no doubt that the SNP in Renfrewshire wanted to dilute the teaching regime and planned to do so. There is no doubt that the Labour council in North Ayrshire did not want to introduce a 4 day week and had no plans to do so.
It is therefore legitimate for Ian Gray to get Eck to demand a u-turn (and get it). Or do you think Eck interfered where he didn't have to? Why would he do that? Why would he get Renfrewshire to reverse a policy they never had? Think about it Jim.
AS for the rest of it, never mind calling people stooges and hacks and apparatchicks, Jim. Try to address the facts. And when you lose the argument, have the grace to admit it.
Ah Braveheart - you do make me laugh! Are you on some sort of Labour media training course?
ReplyDeleteLet's not forget where this started. Over on your blog you described Salmond's response to question at FMQ as:
"typical bombast and bullying bluster, shouting and bawling and waving his arms to such an extent that the Presiding Officer had to cut off his microphone"
Now, that wasn't exactly objective and unfortunately for you it was actually widely reported and readily available on the parliamentary web site, for anyone who cared to check, that Salmond had actually lambasted Grey for having the temerity to attack an SNP council whilst it was being Nationally reported that Labour led North Ayrshire council was considering a 4 day school week.
I commented as such on your post but you then rather strangely denied it.
After I provided you with the evidence that this was indeed what Salmond had said and that there was indeed a story corroborated by North Ayrshire council leader and the education convener, you embark on an exercise in sophistry that would have made Socrates blush.
You'd rather expend your energy arguing about when a proposal is a plan than lament the fact that this country, blessed as it is with natural resource, has been reduced to the point where our councils have to make such drastic considerations, gambling with our children's education whilst we pay through the nose for abominations such as Trident. More shame on you!
As for your spin that this 4 day school week idea was "dismissed without wasting time or energy on it", I think you need to look much more closely at what North Ayrshire education convener Carol Kirk actually said. They don't dismiss any of these ideas out of hand - as you seem to wish they had.
I'm afraid that I haven't lost any argument, because I haven't put up any argument, I've simply reported that facts as they are and watched in astonishment as you've attempted to deny then dilute them in the name of your party allegiance and the hope that somehow you'll damage the SNP. Personally I prefer my personal credibility to remain intact and will continue to comment as objectively as I can, it will not be to further any political agenda even if it happens to disagree with the one (Labour line) you are pushing.
As for this particular post, you should recall that the origin's of it were to address your rather naive assumption that I might dismiss the idea of jumping from a cliff - along with your denial of Salmond's response, denial of the story behind his reponse and embarrasing sophistry on the behalf of the council (when they really don't need it) you've been wanting at every turn. What will you try next I wonder? or will you just take your medicine and accept that not everyone is willing to accept an airbrushing of the facts in order to suit Labour's agenda.
James!
ReplyDeleteSur?
There you are! You've been googling have you? That's nice... And you've found something...? Something that helps our battle with that Bravehearty fellow? Something that the Director of Education at North Ayrshire Council says...? Goo-ood?? Yep. And, does it strengthen our case James, that's the question...?
Let me see. The lady says "....The indicative requirements for the financial year 2013-14 included a wide range of early options which may be considered by the council in the coming years." Yeesss? "early options" And? Isn't that what Bravewotsit said?
Well sur, she says as well "... No decisions have been taken on these options which are for exploration only at this stage."
Yeeessss?? And isn't that also what Bravethingy said ...? James?
Naw really sur, and she said...“..The option for children to start school at age six has been widely discussed by education professionals and is already in operation in many other European countries."...
Which is true James, but hardly relevant to the 4 day week, don't you think?
Sur, gie's a chance, let me finish sur. She then says ".. The option to deliver the statutory 25 hours of education per week over four rather than five days is also being explored by other local authorities.”
So the 4 day week "..is being explored by other local authorities..."?
Is that it James..?
So the director of education says virtually the same things as Bravebuddy has been saying all along and she adds that "other councils" have been looking at a "range of options that might get considered in future years"...
Sorry James, it won't do. No PhD for you yet I'm afraid.
For your next exercise James, you will investigate the origins and meaning of the saying;
"And the mountain laboured, and brought forth a mouse....
Close the door on your way out please.....
Lost the plot Braveheart?
ReplyDelete"Yeeessss?? And isn't that also what Bravethingy said ...? James?"
Well, no surr - First of all Braveheart said it wusnae duscussed at all, then he said that even though it was discussed, it wasnae really discussed, before finally he admitted that it had been discussed but that wasnae the same thing as discussing it...
Aye, that's right sur he does prefer thon circular arguing on moot points to the actual facts or related topics such as Labour's collosul failure whilst in office and the continued misappropriation of our natural resources to support London centric imperial ambitions including the Trident ambomination.
No surr, he doesn't seem to realise or care that the bigger picture is why the council's are being forced into considering these cost cutting projects.
Yes sur, I think he might be...